When I became a devotee [1973ish] the goal was to go back to Godhead. And that is one reason why I became a devotee. That, and the yogic connection Bhakti gives to help one develop their personal relationship with God, through meditative chanting, real service, and committed devotion. This path is something tangible that my church nor any other path I studied, could offer me.
However, over time when various books came out [as Prabhupada was still translating many of them], some words about women left certain men confused - at best. For some ladies, there was mistreatment. I knew this was a misunderstanding. After all, he never treated women the way misogynists treat women. Obviously they are not comprehending the very high level words of the pure devotee. Also I suspected that those inclined to abuse were looking for an excuse to do just that, and did not want to hear truth. Thus, twistings of scripture. It happens in every religion, and not religion. Though some may just need to learn more - while others are seeking loopholes.
At the time I believed that gradually, as everyone became older, mature, studied more deeply - it would get cleared up. And it did. For awhile. And for some. Until it rose to a head again in the 90's. And that was sort of cleared up, or at least they went to their side of the web and we, ours. However, again it showed it's nasty head on fb, causing me to believe it never ends.
In the 1970s my mood was that of trying to push forward the Movement - on the highest level, not bodily concept - rather with the focus on God - not how to be married. Over time, with repetition of some bully's picking on women in the name of God or Guru [passing the buck] I've come to accept that there will always be some out there who choose to put women down. Misquoting of course.
Some misogynists take joy in giving women who disagree with them - trouble. No matter how many times you ask them to stop, you don't engage in the debate with them - they won't leave you alone. They claim you refuse to talk with them (read "debate") because there are not many quotes to support our view - when the real reason is ya just don't want to fight with those who refuse to hear, because there's plenty of quotes as you will see as you continue reading.
Why do they persist like that? It is their sense gratification. They post to start a fight. Some are mean, sarcastic and laugh at things others would not. (Makes them feel powerful.) They're use to being in charge and doing whatever they want. They have no pujari-work or sankirtana or devotional service to busy them enough to keep that in the forefont of their consciousness, instead of the so-called joy of picking a fight - and working to belabor it.
If you've had this experience or similar, and even if not but you want to avoid it, you are in the right place. Keep reading. View this as you would a book in the sense that it is going to have a lot of information, a lot of links with even more proof, and it must be long in order to make the point. Anyone who really wants help (or be able to help another) will understand that this is what it takes. Now, if you disagree with what is being preached here, that's your right, but it is suggested you stop reading. Now.
I make this post to let women or parents know - never let them discourage you! They can get very nasty, single you out and harass because you dare to think different from them, and pick on you for it. Which is proof they are not into protection of women as they claim.
Protect yourself and/or loved ones. Start by getting out of their bad association / block them. And be confident that you have every right to practice the highest type of Krishna Consciousness just as much as any man. (Yes, there are lesser types, which is what most misogynists practice, but claim it's high. Details below.)
This post is not to belittle the good, honest, or sane men out there. I know there are wonderful male devotees who align with aham brahmasmi [not this body but spirit soul], and agree with acting on it too. It is not them I am talking about, and I offer them all respects.
Plus, there are men, and some women, who read quotes, sometimes sent to them or so-called explained to them, thus get the wrong understanding. Or etc. Therefore, this post. Some just need education. Others are bully's.
Male or female reader here, that does not matter. Please remember the Hare Krishna Movement is about God, not woman or how to be married. Has God right there in the name. :)
I am about to include some quotes for empowerment. Yes, I know they are hand-picked, but so are the ummm opponents quotes. I tire of hearing a woman was abused because she had a husband who subscribed to these various mis-beliefs, or tire of finding out women giving up on the practice of Krishna Consciousness because she read certain (incomplete) quotes. Bully's misusing them either don't believe their so-called preaching will bring such adverse results, or don't care. Anyway, to the sincere, it is up to you to empower yourself.
It is not my intention to make the entire blog on this topic - at all. Anyone who takes the time to look at my links to the side or below this entire post, will see that is not the case. Matter of fact, I suggest you bookmark this particular post because it is going to be a long one, for the very reason that I do not want to keep talking about this topic more then necessary.
Let me say upfront, I do not like doing this and am saddened that Prabhupada and Krishna are being misrepresented in such ways. Misrepresentation is a large reason I do this - to clear 'Their' names. Additionally, I find it sad that I "have" to compose this at all. When bigotry rises it's nasty head again [a recent experience on fb by a young man bullying an old lady], I feel obliged to make a post to clear up any confusion for other young people, or old.
We are about God - not woman, and no more blaming Prabhupada or Krishna for abuse, including abuse of scripture. Thus, some quotes:
"Woman means for man the woman is woman, and for the woman the man is woman. Not that woman means a particular class. Woman means which are enjoyable. So in this material world, the man is enjoyable by the woman, and the woman is enjoyable by the man. For both of them, visayinam sandarsanm atha yositam. Yosit means enjoyable." Srila Prabhupada Lecture - Srimad-Bhagavatam. Vrndavana, 10 September 1976
"You do not think that only woman is woman. The man is also woman. Don't think that the woman is condemned; man is not. Woman means enjoyed, and man means enjoyer. So this feeling, this feeling is condemned. If I see one woman for enjoyment, so I am man. And if woman also sees another man for enjoyment, she is also man. Woman means enjoyed and man means enjoyer. So anyone who has got feeling of enjoyment, he is considered to be man. So here both sexes meant for... Everyone is planning, "How I shall enjoy?" Therefore he is purusa, artificially. Otherwise, originally, we are all prakrti, jiva, either woman or man. This is outward dress." Srila Prabhupada Lecture, Srimad-Bhagavatam. Vrndavana, 1 September 1975
"We are not concerned with male or female position in life. That is simply bodily concept of life. It is not spiritual." Srila Prabhupada Letter to Jennifer -- Mexico City 15 February, 1975
"But the present age of kali is full of ignorant men. Even those who are born by a brahmana father are, in the present age, no better than the sudra or the women. " SB 1.3. 21
"Unless one is firmly fixed in the regulative principles, one may perform mischievous acts, even if one is a member of the Krsna consciousness movement. We THEREFORE advise our disciples to strictly follow the regulative principles; otherwise the most important movement for the upliftment of humanity will be hampered due to dissension among its members. Those who are serious about pushing forward this Krsna consciousness movement should remember this and strictly follow the regulative principles so that their minds will not be disturbed." Srimad Bhagavatam 5.14.35
* Some claim all women must marry (thus such men want to deny woman to be a brahmacarini). Not only did Prabhupada open brahmacarini ashrama's world-wide (many which have been closed but that's an entire, other topic), here are some quotes to show women can dedicate themselves fully to God if they want, and do not have to marry in order to be saved. While most people will marry, it needs to be made unhidden that women have other options.
Those seeking love-marriages (they can be real), or those who later may experience marriage problems but now it's hope and love - some of this may sound strong, though it is also worded in a positive way. Please know this is simply meant to show the option to be a single woman in Krishna Consciousness.
"I shall be glad if the Brahmacarinis can have nice husbands, and live as Grhasthas. But if they cannot find out good husbands, it is better to remain a Brahmacarini all the life, even though it is little difficult." - Srila Prabhupada letter to Satsvarupa Montreal, August 8, 1968
"I always remember you as the nicest girl because you are so devoutly engaged in the service of Krishna. I am sure Krishna is pleased on you and He will bestow His blessings upon you. Better you accept Krishna as your Husband and He will never be unfaithful. Mundane husbands and wives never agree with one another. Because in the material world the relations are on the basis of body which is false basically. Under the circumstance how we can have the genuine thing on platform of false existence. Devote yourself therefore 24 hours in the service of Krishna and see how you feel happy in all respects. You are very good girl, because I have heard you chanting while working. It is very good and may Krishna give you more and more enlightenment. I always pray that you may be happy by our Lord's Grace. I shall be glad to hear from you." -Srila Prabhupada Letter to a female disciple Jaudarani dd, San Francisco, January 30, 1967
"You will be glad to know that we draw no distinction of caste, creed, or nationality." Srila Prabhupada letter to HareKrishnaJi Das, L.A., Ca., Feb. 1, 1968
"Under the circumstances, what woman who has once heard of Your glories from authoritative sources and has somehow or other relished the nectarean fragrance of Your lotus feet would be foolish enough to agree to marry someone of this material world who is always afraid of death, disease, old age and rebirth? I have therefore accepted Your lotus feet not without consideration but after mature and deliberate decision." - Krsna Book, Chapter 60
In the following quote, Srila Prabhupada was referring to Gurudasa's wife, Yamuna devi dasi:
"His wife has also sanyasi, renounced. Have you seen her? She has cut her hair, white dress, living alone in temple." - Srila Prabhupada, London, Room conversation, 1976
To read, enlarge the picture by clicking on it:
Next, what follows is a verse the over-lords :) or those who want to lord it over women, often use. We need to look at it in order to gain a 'more clear' understanding than that of the repressors:
"A woman who has no husband declares herself independent, which means that she becomes a prostitute. A prostitute generally dresses herself in various fashions intended to attract a man's attention to the lower part of her body. SB 6.5.14, Translation and Purport
First, remember one of the quotes above, where Prabhupada actually says that women does NOT not have to marry if she can't find a 'good' husband, just remain good devotee. There may be a debate over what is a 'good' husband, but that's too complex to get into here. Let's summarize it to say, the authorities do not get to decide, the man wanting to marry her does not get to decide, SHE decides and in line with Prabhupada's highest teachings.
Next, considering it was a different yuga / time period, and there was not always a way for a woman to financially support herself, sometimes they felt forced to do various things to survive.
Then, when I researched the verse, there was more. They left off the ending. Had the ending been a continuance of the same, that might be more honest on their part. But it is different. Here it is:
"In our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, fashionable persons are taught to adopt one fashion—the dress of a Vaiṣṇava with a shaved head and tilaka. They are taught to be always clean in mind, dress and eating in order to be fixed in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. What is the use of changing one's dress, sometimes wearing long hair and a long beard and sometimes dressing otherwise? This is not good. One should not waste his time in such frivolous activities. One should always be fixed in Kṛṣṇa consciousness and take the cure of devotional service with firm determination."
I must say upfront, I did not put the entire purport because nondevotees also read this blog, or those on the fence - we don't want to discourage anyone, and the point has been made. Next, in the above we see Prabhupada is including men regarding fashion, cleanliness of mind, avoiding frivolousness (includes hassling a woman), and to be "fixed" in Krishna Consciousness, etc.
Plus, in that verse we see that Prabhupada was not talking about Krishna Conscious women, as oppressors often tell us such verses apply to us. No, as you see above, when progressing thru what he wrote, he points out that devotee women dress differently. Yet this verse was shown to me specifically in reference to devotee women - that this is what we will turn into if not married, to one of them/misogynists of course.
"But she is not ordinary woman. She's devotee. Similarly, any devotee woman is as good as Kunti." - Srila Prabhupada, Mayapura lecture, Sept 30, 1974
I wish to add, there are various spiritual unmarried woman out there who are chaste. When Prabhupada spoke in a church, he showed respect to everyone there, women included. And it was not a show - he meant it! Also, there are various women who have not committed to any path, who are chaste.
Here is another verse they love to use, and ties into the above verse and topic. Let's look at it for a clearer view;
"Vedic civilization recommends that a woman stay under the protection of a man. During childhood she should be cared for by her father, in youth by her husband, and in old age by a grown son. In any stage of life, a woman should not have independence." SB 9.19.8, Translation and Purport
Now, if marriage to a man was more important, then why did Prabhupada not quickly get every woman married, but instead gave women 1st AND 2nd spiritual initiation - plus created brahmacarini ashramas? Think about it. While he had some marry, he did not have every woman marry.
Prabhupada wanted brahmacarini [female] ashramas. This took the place of the men described above, and further, a safe place for mostly single women to take shelter, be protected, and perform devotional service. They were unmarried and chaste. Narcissists do not like the existence of these ashrama's because then they can not lord it over women. They don't care that it was the instruction of the pure devotee Srila Prabhupada, as they went out of their way to shut them down.
"Therefore as I have suggested previously as they do in Christian religion they have so many convent where the women stay and they receive protection. The point is that the women must be protected and it is the duties of the leaders of our society to see that this is carried out." -Srila Prabhupada letter, Melbourne, 10 February, 1973
Any parent or woman can create and open her own Brahmacarini Ashrama. As long as she and all the women involved agree to live the lifestyle. One option is to open your apartment for this purpose (tho that can be tricky as people tend to move in and out), or find a couple of ladies desiring to commit, therefore you all rent and open a brahmacarini ashrama together. It may not, initially, be easy, but "learn how." It can't be that hard, as it was done before. And don't let anyone make you feel that because you are female, you can not open such things. They are wrong:
"If Yamuna and yourself can develop such an institution of a woman's asrama, that will be nice. You are all elderly devotees. I think that this will be a 'good idea." Srila Prabhupada Letter to Palika devi dasi, Bombay - Los Angeles, Nov 13, 1975
Plus, here's a devotees personal experience and memory. Click on pic to enlarge and read:
Misogynists accuse, that if we don't hand our daughters or godisters over to them, we are not protecting them. Bogus. Nowhere am I saying not to give protection. By all means, protect the females in your life! However, no one should confuse protection as an excuse to lord it over.
Similarly, do not confuse protection as a way to win a marital argument. No one should be so puffed-up they will not read quality self-help books on how to be married if necessary, or find some type of (real) help when there is trouble in the marriage. If they are abusing, they need to admit they need help. But to start throwing scripture to win a battle with the wife is nonsense and has nothing to do with protection. Though it has something to do with the abuser not knowing how to live in the real world and get along with others.
* Next, some claim, only man or husband can be spiritual master, therefore wife should do whatever her guru-pati/ husband tells her. Incorrect. Some such men even deny the wife spiritual initiation based on this concept. While there was an old 'system' that the husband be the family guru, that was a time when they were pure devotees or ran a close second. Those in our scripture were highly qualified. Nowhere do we see Prabhupada authorize men of this time period to be the spiritual master / guru over their wife. Show me one letter where he gave that instruction to the man to behave like diksha. It is not there. In kali yuga, ya don't get to be guru with someone you are sleeping with. Srila Prabhuapda is the guru, bas. Deviate from him, and that is the real cause of bullies marital problems. If they are wise, considering the karma they must take on their head if they want to absolute position of guru, better to avoid and just let Prabhupada be the family guru.
"'One cannot be a husband if he cannot liberate his dependents from inevitable death.' If a person is not in Krsna consciousness and is bereft of spiritual power, he cannot protect his wife from the path of repeated birth and death. Consequently such a person cannot be accepted as a husband. A wife should dedicate her life and everything to Krsna for further advancement in Krsna consciousness. If her husband abandons Krsna consciousness and she gives up her connection with him, she follows in the footsteps of the dvija-patnis, the wives of the brahmanas who were engaged in performing sacrifices. The wife is not to be condemned for cutting off such a relationship." Caitanya Caritamrta, Madhya-lila 15.264, P
Devotee memory:
Visala: "I brought my wife to Bombay with me and I said to Srila Prabhupada in front of her, “Srila Prabhupada, the brahmacaris for years have kind of criticized the women, saying they’re less intelligent, their brain is smaller, they’re lustier, things like that. Is that true?” And Srila Prabhupada’s answer was, “You are chanting Hare Krishna and your wife is chanting Hare Krishna. Where is the question of being less intelligent?” I remember reading in Caitanya-caritamrta in Prabhupada’s purport, “The women in our movement are preaching. Therefore, they are as good as their brothers.” Then I said to Srila Prabhupada also, “Srila Prabhupada, I understand that the husband is representative of the spiritual master and the wife is representative of her husband. Srila Prabhupada, should she do everything I ask?” And Srila Prabhupada said, “And you should be so arrogant?” Reference: https://vanipedia.org/wiki/Visala_das_Remembers_Srila_Prabhupada#Interview_DVD_05
"And they're not, that... I cannot control even my tongue and control my genital, and I become spiritual master? This is nonsense. This is nonsense. You learn first of all. Try to control. Become first-class controller, dhīraḥ. That is called dhīraḥ, not disturbed by any urges. Etān vegān yo viṣaheta dhīraḥ. Dhīras tatra na muhyati. This word is used, dhīraḥ. Dhīraḥ means very sober, fully controlled. That is called dhīraḥ. Dhīras tatra na muhyati. Unless you become dhīraḥ, you cannot understand what is spiritual life. That is not possible. Therefore Kṛṣṇa says in the Bhagavad-gītā, tathā dehāntara-prāptir dhīras tatra na muhyati [Bg. 2.13]. Dhīras tatra na muhyati. So you cannot understand even. Unless you become a dhīraḥ, you cannot understand what is spiritual life, what is spirit." Prabhupāda, Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam 1.16.20 Hawaii, January 16, 1974
"Nobody is master. One thinks that "I am the master," but he is actually servant. Suppose if you have got your family, if you are thinking that you are the master of your wife, of your children, of your servants, of your business, that is false. You are the servant of your wife, you are the servant of your children, you are the servant of your servants. That is your real position." -Srila Prabhupada Lecture BG 06.01-4, New York September 02, 1966
"If your husband cannot follow our principles properly, you are not to think that you should let that hamper your spiritual life. You should stay with us and cultivate spiritual life peacefully under Krishna's protection and care. If he is not interested in spiritual life, let him do as he pleases. I have given all of my disciple instructions to follow for making spiritual advancement, but if they do not have the desire to follow, then what can I do? Anyone who is unwilling to follow our regulated principles, you should not live or associate closely with such a person." ~ SP letter to Caitanya Dasi, Los Angeles, 25 April, 1973
Above we see, for our day and age it's not true that the husband can do anything and the wife must put up with his bad character. To clarify, what we are encouraging is marriage counseling or such books if it is needed. Plus, the fallen bullies to purify themselves, become courageous to own their stuff, thus learn how to truthfully be a good husband in kali yuga.
Next quote from Krsna Book, Delivering the Wives of the Brahmanas Who Performed Sacrifices. Refering to the wives of the brahmana's:
"They began to embrace Krishna to their hearts' content, and the distress of separation was mitigated immediately. They were just like great sages who, by their advancement of knowledge, merge into the existence of the Supreme. As the Supersoul living in everyone's heart, Lord Krishna could understand their minds; they had come to Him despite all the protests of their relatives, fathers, husbands, brothers, and all the duties of household affairs. They came just to see Him who was their life and soul. They were actually following Krishna's instruction in the Bhagavad-gétä: one should surrender to Him, giving up all varieties of occupational and religious duties. The wives of the brähmaas actually carried out the instruction of the Bhagavad-gétä in total." Krsna book, Ch 23
We see here the most chaste and most Vedic women doing something higher than blind following of their husband.
"A fallen husband is one who is addicted to the four principles of sinful activity--namely illicit sex, meat-eating, gambling and intoxication. Specifically, if one is not a soul surrendered to the Supreme Personality of Godhead, he is understood to be contaminated. Thus a chaste woman is advised not to agree to serve such a husband. It is not that a chaste woman should be like a slave while her husband is naradhama, the lowest of men. Giving up the association of her husband does not mean, however, that a woman should marry again and thus indulge in prostitution. If a chaste woman unfortunately marries a husband who is fallen, she should live separately from him." Srimad Bhagavatam 7.11.29Purport
Some misogynists claim they are speaking in line with shastra. What they are really doing is imitating what great devotees did in better yuga's (age or time period), while ignoring Prabhupada's instructions for those of us born now in Kali Yuga. Including his instructions to men. The bullies remain unqualified while pretending to be qualified.
Some oppressors actually agree they should not be diksha, but tend to follow that with, they are shiksha/instructing guru.
Back in the day when Prabhupada spoke or we found something interesting in scripture, we shared it with everybody. Husband with wife, but also wife with husband. Everyone who follows can be considered shiksha guru at times. If a man is truthfully spiritually advanced, he may give her some instruction, but does not get that position due to his maleness. Matter of fact, usually the more they think their material body qualifies them, the less spiritually advanced they are. Thus, if they're in maya, they are not shiksha guru merely because of their body.
"First business is to become free from the designation. If you think yourself that "I am American," "I am Christian," "I am Hindu," "I am Indian," "I am black," "I am white," these are all designation. So sarvopadhi-vinirmuktam, when you become transcendental to all designation, when you come to the platform to understand that "I am not this body; I am spirit soul," brahma-bhutah prasannatma, then you become happy.” Srila Prabhupada lecture, Srimad Bhagavatam 1.16.16, Los Angeles, January 11, 1974
“So this life should be utilized for purifying ourself from this designation. If you keep the designation then there is NO POSSIBIITY OF PURIFICATION. You'll get another designation. Now we are Indian or Iranian, next a sparrow or a crow or a tree or a demigod. Another designation. Just like the same, the child, a baby, on the lap of the mother, a baby, and another designation, boy, another designation young man, another designation, old man. But the spirit soul is the same. He's simply changing designations. So freedom means freedom from all these designations." Srila Prabhupada, Evening Conversation, Aug 76, Tehran
"I am practically seeing that as soon as they, our students, begin to learn a little Sanskrit, they immediately feel they have become more than their guru. Then the policy is to kill their guru and become guru themselves". "As soon as he learns that Guru Maharaj is dead, now I am so advanced I can kill guru and become guru. Then he is finished." (Srila Prabhupada 1976).
With that said, we want everyone to get along. That means there will be all types of marriages. Even theirs (if done correctly). It's not that I like theirs ha but it is their right which I honor. Yet narcissist hate us preaching even this, because they want only one type of marriage - theirs. But their belief on this topic is not based in fact. There is even a letter Prabhupada wrote to Silavati where he said if the husband is not as spiritually advanced as the wife, then the wife can be spiritual master.
Here is the letter, directly from the pure devotee. Read it and decide for yourself:
SP Letter to: Silavati, New Vrindaban, 14 June, 1969
"My Dear Silavati,
Please accept my blessings. I thank you very much for your letter dated June, 1969, and I have carefully noted the contents therein. Regarding the suggestion that you remarry, I have never suggested such thing, so you need not trouble yourself with this. As I have told you in Los Angeles, I wish that the mother's who have no husband at present should not remarry, but should dedicate their time to seeing that their children are brought up very nicely in Krishna Consciousness. Your boy, Birbhadra, has just arrived here, and he will be taken care of by Kirtanananda Maharaja. Satyabhama Dasi is in charge of educating the children in New Vrindaban, and she is very qualified to do this because she is educated and works very nicely with the children. So there is no difficulty at present in this regards, and as you are so nicely engaged in your activities in Los Angeles, you should continue as you are now doing. Your description of the course you are giving to the interested girls about the role they play in Krishna Consciousness is very nice, and I am pleased that you have begun this project. Actually the role of all conditioned souls is the same; to chant Hare Krishna, tell others to chant, perfect our lives in Krishna Consciousness, and to go back to Godhead when this body is finished. Now if you can induce all the women of Los Angeles to place an altar in their homes and help their husbands have peaceful, happy home life in Krishna Consciousness, that will be very great service for you. The actual system is that the husband is Spiritual Master to his wife, but if the wife can bring her husband into practicing this process, then it is all right that the husband accepts wife as Spiritual Master. Caitanya Mahaprabhu has said that anyone who knows the science of Krishna, that person should be accepted as Spiritual Master, regardless of any material so-called qualifications; such as rich or poor, man or woman, or brahmana or sudra. So if you can show the women of the community how to help their husbands and children to perfect their home life, and all aspects of life, in Krishna Consciousness by chanting, aratrik ceremonies, and eating Krishna prasadam, then you will improve the conditions of the neighboring communities to an incalculable extent. So try for this as far as possible. I already have practical experience that many of the American girls and boys are very intelligent and qualified to take up this sublime movement. We simply have to instruct them nicely, and surely many will understand that here is such a nice thing and they must take to it. So I am very pleased with the nice efforts you are making. I hope this will meet you in good health.
Your ever well wisher,
A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami"
So we see it is not one-size-fits-all. There are going to be a large variety of how marriages are run. In my day the marriage standard was: Whatever makes you the most Krishna C - do that. Not all this fanaticism.
Abuse is maya, moreso when done in the name of God or Guru. It also suggests the man (only the abuser man) has lost control of his senses, and/or is not smart enough to ascertain a better way to make his point, or can't admit when he is wrong and his wife is correct. Many reasons, all maya. All blocks to going back to Godhead.
It is not that because one is born male that he is sinless or guru. He must earn any position he desires. Otherwise, just as they find verses against women such as the one above, here are some about them:
"When a person is devoid of devotional service, or visnu-bhakti, he takes to many sinful activities. King Puranjana left home, neglected his own wife and engaged himself in killing animals. This is the position of all materialistic men. They do not care for a married chaste wife. They take the wife only as an instrument for sense enjoyment, not as a means for devotional service. To have unrestricted sex life, the karmis work very hard. They have concluded that the best course is to have sex with any woman and simply pay the price for her, as though she were a mercantile commodity. Thus they engage their energy in working very hard for such material acquisitions. Such materialistic people have lost their good intelligence. They must search out their intelligence within the heart." Srimad Bhagavatam 4.26.17
"There are similarly men also. Unnecessarily they are envious, offensive, unnecessary. They cannot tolerate others' opulence. Just like our Godbrothers. They are envious. What I have done to them? I am doing my business, trying to serve my Guru Mahārāja. But they are envious because I am so opulent. I have got so much fame, so many influence, so much influence all over the world. Everyone is praising me about... That is ignorance. And this is regrettable because they are posing themselves as Vaiṣṇava. Ordinary man can do that, but they are dressing like Vaiṣṇava, and they are so envious. That Tīrtha Mahārāja, unnecessarily he was envious, whole life fighting, fighting, fighting in the court and died." Srila Prabhupada Room Conversation January 8th 1977, Bombay
"King Puranjana left home, neglected his own wife and engaged himself in killing animals. This is the position of all materialistic men. They do not care for a married chaste wife. They take the wife only as an instrument for sense enjoyment, not as a means for devotional service. To have unrestricted sex life, the karmis work very hard. They have concluded that the best course is to have sex with any woman and simply pay the price for her, as though she were a mercantile commodity. Thus they engage their energy in working very hard for such material acquisitions. Such materialistic people have lost their good intelligence. They must search out their intelligence within the heart." Srimad Bhagavatam 4.26.17 P
"Persons under the grip of Maya are simply mad after sense enjoyment, but our goal is to lose all desire for sense gratification and become simply mad after Krishna." SP letter to Madhusudana das, Tittenhurst, September 19, 1969
"The practice of forcing one's wife to drink one's own semen is a black art practiced by extremely lusty persons. Those who practice this very abominable activity say that if a wife is forced to drink her husband's semen, she remains very faithful to him. Generally only low-class men engage in this black art, but if a man born in a higher class does so, after death he is put into the hell known as Lālābhakṣa. There he is immersed in the river known as Śukra-nadī and forced to drink semen." SB 5.26.26, P
I don't like digging up such verses, because there are very nice, fixed up, devotee men out there. So again I wish to clarify, these verses do NOT apply to them, and only apply to those misusing. I feel my hand is forced to research them as misogynists love to research how we will be prostitutes. Please know, not all men are misogynists or narcissists.
Next, those who have attitudes against women, most likely also believe Black bodies or Latino Etc are inferior - male or female. Maybe not all of them believe that way, but it is common in misogynists. I have seen it. This is contradictory to Prabhupada's transcendental teachings.
* And we can't help but doubt how many misogynists are truthfully following all four of those regulative principles. They want women because they want sex. And those who want multiple women - want multiple sex.
"After conferring with my various GBC representatives I have concluded that polygamy must be strictly prohibited in our society. Although it is a Vedic institution still there are so many legal implications. Neither are many of our men fixed up enough to tend for more than one wife. Polygamy will simply increase the sex life and our philosophy is to gradually decrease the sex life till eventually there is no sex life. The policy should be that all the women are given the utmost protection. Women are looking for husbands because they feel unprotected so it is up to the senior members to give all protection to the women." SP Letter to Rupanuga -- Sydney 14 February, 1973
Too bad the authorities seldom follow that policy. sigh Oppressors like to think that they therefore are picking up the slack. And that is why women must learn how to protect themselves. Teach your daughters, sons, and so on. There are many ways but on this blog we mostly empower ourselves with quotes about women that bullies don't want us to see, or try to philosophize away. Read, study, you are smart, use your brains because you DO have them. Einstein was awful at math. His wife did his math for him quite often.
We don't need polygamist to pick up any so-called slack. Prabhupada already solved the problem with brahmacarini ashramas. He specifically instructed that such ashrama's must be provided to avoid polygamy and give protection.
As touched on above, after I joined in the 70's, some men started to misunderstand scripture and mistreat women as inferior. Some even tried to get women out of the temples [but Prabhupada told them no]. Fast-forward many decades, now we have some wanting more then one wife. It may appear as opposite issues, but in essence it is the same issue:
At first they hated women because such men were sexually turned on by the ladies, so they tried to kick out women or get rid of them. Now some men want polygamy also because they're sexually turned on but no longer want to control themselves - some misogynists don't want polygamy yet indulge whenever they want. Thus not behaving like an initiated disciple. Attraction and repulsion (Gita) = same thing. But decades of it?! Ridiculous. Such men have not matured.
"Eka-patni-vrata, accepting only one wife, was the glorious example set by Lord Ramacandra. One should not accept more than one wife. In those days, of course, people did marry more than one wife. Even Lord Ramacandra’s father accepted more wives than one. But Lord Ramacandra, as an ideal king, accepted only one wife, mother Sita. When mother Sita was kidnapped by Ravana and the Raksha's, Lord Ramacandra, as the Supreme Personality of Godhead, could have married hundreds and thousands of Sitas, but to teach us how faithful He was to His wife, He fought with Ravana and finally killed him. The Lord punished Ravana and rescued His wife to instruct men to have only one wife. Lord Ramacandra accepted only one wife and manifested sublime character, thus setting an example for householders. A householder should live according to the ideal of Lord Ramacandra, who showed how to be a perfect person." Srimad Bhagavatam, 9.10.55
Another reason there is no need for polygamy - long ago there were twice as many women born and less men, especially all men should not marry. However, in our present kali yuga, from the 1970's to now, there have always been fewer female devotees who "joined" and moved into the temples than male. Probably because certain men blow them away. :) Anyhow, in NY there were about 90 or more men - and about 20 women. I've lived at quite a few temples and there were always far more men than women. Now that authorities have shut down most [but not all] brahmacarini ashramas, there are even less women! It is no longer an excuse to accumulate wives.
And lets get honest - with a few exceptions - history shows that eventually nearly all the men marry too.
Shall women act like Draupadi and taken on extra husbands? ha After all, it's in the Vedas. :) Not to worry, we have no such interest. Proof? Decades and it has never happened in this Movement! Why some men have interest in multiple wives is beyond me. Wait, no it's not. Sex desire coupled with power to lord it over.
"Those whose senses are very much uncontrolled especially try to hunt for many women." Srimad Bhagavatam 4. 26. 4 Purport
"The conditioned soul is very proud of becoming the husband of even one wife, but the Lord laughs at this; the intelligent man can know who is the real husband. Factually, the Lord is the husband of all the women in His creation, but a conditioned soul under the control of the Lord feels proud to be the husband of one or two wives." Srimad Bhagavatam 2.4.20
"A person should be so nicely trained up that the one wife with religious ceremony, by performing religious ceremony, is given to him, he should be satisfied with her, not to see other women, adulteration. This is Kali-yuga." S. Bhagavatam class, 1974
"Anger means lust. When you are lusty and your lust is not fulfilled, you become angry. That's all. It is another feature of the lust. Kāma eṣa krodha eṣa rajo-guṇa-samudbhavaḥ. When you are too much influenced with the modes of passion, you become lusty. And when your lust is not fulfilled, then you are angry, next stage. And next stage is that there is bewilderment. And then next stage is praṇaśyati, then you are lost. Therefore one has to control this lust and anger." SP Lecture: Seattle, September 30, 1968
"The Vedic principle is that one should avoid sex life altogether. The whole Vedic principle is to get liberation from material bondage." Srila Prabhupada and Bob Cohen, February 28, 1972
Interesting how misogynists say it is the women who are not Vedic who do not want to live their way, when we see here Prabhupada is saying something much higher.
And that is part of the problem. You see, Srila Prabhupada is very merciful. If someone can not live the lifestyle of the highest platform, they can do something lesser and still be a devotee. That part is fine; it is good. We want Krishna Consciousness open to everyone on any level they can handle. However, they may not run around the net and harass others, or behave superior to initiated devotees, bossing them around, when they can't do what these others are able to do.
Enviousness? Sure, plus issues. I believe most, if not all, misogynists and polygamists have something wrong with them. It usually can be fixed/purified, but they don't want to give up their sense gratification, which would be the result of correcting the problem.
"One should become a perfect gentleman and learn to give proper respect to others." - Sri Isopanisad, 1, Purport
Gurukuli abuse is partially due to misuse, twistings, snipping, etc, of Prabhupada's words, including those about females. (The other part is desire!) Selective quoting, half-truths, and so on. Because once women become disempowered - there is child abuse.
Some repressors claim the husband does not have to be a pure devotee to be given the same treatment of the great saints and sages in our ancient scripture, and can even be of questionable character. [They quote shastra to support their point. And I will quote shastra below to support our point.]
My response? Ok you don't have to be a pure devotee, but you do need to be actively working toward it. As an initiated disciple they must be following the rules and regulations, hearing, chanting, reading, worshiping, and more. If not initiated, or if not following Prabhupada's highest teachings, they should not be arguing with those who are, or with those sincerely trying toward the highest. They should not be picking fights with anyone really - get a life. :)
In the early days Prabhupada referred to all his disciple's as pure devotees, because than everyone was following strictly, it was only time separating them. However, we seldom see him call them that again.
Thus, two points: 1) Prabhupada expected all disciples to rise to the level of pure devotee. If not strictly following, then no sane man would want to be treated like the saints and sages of the past. Or if he does, big karmic reaction. 2) Prabhupada stopped calling everyone a pure devotee because he saw how so many were struggling just to do the basics.
Here is the letter with his very high expectations of everyone:
"Answering your puzzle, it may be said that a pure devotee is he who loves Krishna, without any material desire. People are generally engaged in karma. Karma means work and get the result and enjoy life. And jnana, jnana means speculating process to understand the Absolute Truth. So one who does not indulge in speculating habit, neither tries to gain something by his work, but simply engages himself in the service of the Lord, he is called a pure devotee. Such pure devotees are very rare. But by the Grace of Krishna, practically all the devotees and disciples who have kindly joined me, they are, their symptoms are pure devotees. Even if they have got some ulterior desire, that will be removed very soon, because they have taken to the pure process of Krishna Consciousness." Srila Prabhupada, letter to Janaki devi dasi, Seattle Oct 13, 1968 <---
He did not call us pure devotees much longer after that. I understand men desiring right treatment. But why do such men (and not all men) doubt they will not be treated right, and to such an extreme. Why do they want a strange and possibly estranged relationship with the wife. Seems impersonal since they are not pure devotees and not following strictly. Maybe there is an exception out there but I do not believe I've ever run into a misogynist who "truthfully" follows Prabhupada's outlined program - strictly. If they were, they would not be so desirous of women or power.
Too much artificiality seems to be within such a marriage. Misogynists need to get humble and do genuine introspection, though they hardly ever will. Their ego is too big.
And sometimes it's their brain-wiring. Yes, some of them suffer from severe OCD to Depression or some other such issue. But they were never diagnosed or helped because everyone around them in their family and like-minded friends, tell them how great they are. No one is allowed to tell them there is something wrong and they need to see a psychiatrist or therapist. No. The woman will get in huge trouble, and his friends are on his side. Thus, he goes through life lording it over, and the family suffers.
Not all have mental issues. Some are just conceited.
And some were taught since childhood that woman is lesser than man, therefore he must be blindly surrendered to, and as her guru. For example: Hindu's, other cultures, a handful of Gurukuli's may still believe this. We are not criticizing them. If the man can rise to the occasion and live as a pure devotee in truth, then if a married couple choose the lifestyle where he's in charge of everything, we accept.
However, most just want power, sex, to win marital arguments, or throw their weight around.
Instead, please live the lifestyle Prabhupada outlined for the disciple. That means the 4 regulative principles, not 3/12 regs, it doesn't exist. So, celibacy except to conceive a child and then 50 rounds are chanted first. It also means chant 16 rounds daily, rise early and either attend temple morning programs or do you own, full, morning program in your house. Spend the rest of the day in devotional service tho householders can get a job - but any opportunity to think/meditate on Krishna must be utilized even at work. No tv/video tv, karmi music, karmi anything. The evening is summed up with an evening program, very light prasadam, reading Krishna book before taking rest, and sleeping in separate beds, when doable separate rooms. There can even be more requirements of the initiate as these are only the basics. For anyone who wants to be authority over woman, first become authority over yourself - self disciple /disciple. Not telling everyone to live this way. Those who want denigrate women and claim superiority 'must' be capable to, first and foremost - without taking it out on children or women, or other men who may 'appear' lesser to them.
After our history, the idea that wife must blindly "obey" the husband regardless if he has questionable character is puffed-up in this age. Who she should obey is the pure devotee Srila Prabhupada, and without twisting of scripture to get her to do so - as that is manipulation and trickery.
Even if we agree husbands don't have to be a pure devotee, they can not beat, rape, verbally abuse the wife, mislead her away from the highest type of Krishna Consciousness - and say it's in line with Prabhuapda. Bogus.
"So in India still, in villages, whenever there is some quarrel between husband-wife, the husband beats and she is tamed. In civilized society, "Oh, you have done this?" Immediately some criminal case. But in uncivilized society they don't care for court or civilized way . . ."Srila Prabhupada Room conversation, New York, April 12, 1969
[Do you really think initiated female disciples need to be tamed? If so, who will tame the men? Surely everyone needs correction some times. Shall we use this method? May temple presidents and GBC tame the men in such ways? Prabhupada gave us a training program to train us up - not a hitting program. And, while misogynists love to quote other aspects of this verse, they minimize or ignore the fact that it is considered criminal!]
"If you become unnecessarily lusty and attack your wife or somebody, that is sinful." Prabhupada lecture G 07.11.13, Bombay India, Marcy 28, 72
"I have brought these vanara's, monkeys like mleccas and yavana's. No one is fully qualified among them." Prabhupada, Bengali conversation, Oct 8, 1977
"If you make intentional mistakes, if you have a sinful life, and you say to yourself, 'Now that I am singing Hare Krishna, I can do whatever I want, the consequences will be cancelled.' This kind of scoundrel will be punished very, very severely. "Oh I live in Vrindavan, oh, it's a holy place, I can do anything, the effects will be undone. They will become Vrindavan's cats, dogs or monkeys." Srila Prabhupada, Vrindavan, December 5, 1975
"kauṭumbikaḥ krudhyati vai janāya. When one's mind is disturbed in so many ways, he satisfies himself by becoming angry with his poor wife and children. The wife and children are naturally dependent on the father, but the father, being unable to maintain the family properly, becomes mentally distressed and therefore chastises the family members unnecessarily." Srila Prabhupada SB 5.13.8 Purport
Some of them even take great joy in harassing women who disagree with them. What a toxic pleasure. Not very Krishna Conscious, especially from those claiming to be superior.
"It is especially mentioned here that a devotee must be free from all violence. Lord Caitanya has recommended that a devotee not commit violence to any living entity...... A devotee has to execute the principles of devotional service exactly as they are, and he must know that however insignificant a living entity may be, the Lord is present within him. A devotee must realize this universal presence of the Lord." Srimad-Bhagavatam 3-29-23
"One should never think that his mind is trained and that he can do whatever he likes." CC, Madhya 11.10
"Inform my daughter Sathi to abandon her relationship with her husband because he has fallen down. When the husband falls down, it is the wife's duty to relinquish the relationship." Caitanya Caritamrita, Madhya Lila, 15.264
I myself am startled that I have to reference some devotee as narcists and/or misogynists, but those who choose to only follow the parts of Prabhupada's teachings that puff them up and give them sense gratification - are inclined to behave like this. Cheaters and the cheated. Sad when having the knowledge at your fingertips regarding how to get out of the material world and return to Krishna, they rather be bullies.
Now, these guys like to point out that a woman should never have any connection with men before her marriage. Sure, we encourage that, but they make it sound like she is no good if she did. Prabhupada accepted everyone. And, we are a preaching Movement, meaning we bring in new people from the outside world all the time. They can't erase their past nor should they be made to feel bad. Plus, if such men are so spiritually advanced, it's kind of weird they even care about these things. The purity they should be seeking should not be about physical sex, but about spiritual God.
These fanatics OMIT the part that a man must be celibate for 25 years before he marries. So many things they exclude in that way. Please know, anyone has the birthright to take to spiritual life of the highest.
But if such men want to bring up the topic of prostitutes, which they are fond of doing so they can believe they are doing women a big favor marrying her, Prabhupada states even the prostitute can become a devotee. Cintamani is a good example!
What's sad is that misogynists assume devotee women are not chaste unless they preach the heck out of that to them, over and over they behave as if women need reminding. REALITY CHECK. What we have in truth are some men, and not all, lusting after more than one woman - while most devotee women are chaste as heck.
I've often suspected their lack of trust about women ability to control her sexual desire is because such men themselves see various young girls / teenagers or a pretty woman, and desire them all - assuming if they do this, so must their wife. Hogwash.
Women who take initiation vows (or privately vowing to live the same lifestyle) are as much of a good devotee as anyone else, and even some who don't take vows. Some men want to lump everyone into one category of prostitute, and it's simply not true.
* Regarding the argument bullies give that a woman must never have her freedom and must never be independent - that it is not Vedic:
First, lets briefly discuss what is Vedic. Demi-god worshippers are Vedic. Impersonalists and Mayavadi's are Vedic. Shivites are Vedic. There are many types and branches of Vedic. The type of Vedic we are trying to be is to align ourselves with Krishna the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Everything else is automatically there when one practices Krishna Consciousness.
Prabhupada had us do many things that may not be considered Vedic. He gave ladies brahman initiation/priest. He sent single women out on the streets to distribute transcendental literature to men.
Misogynists know they can't speak about this or it will be a criticism of Srila Prabhupada. Therefore they either ignore it, or say they will let their wife do this only if the husband can go with her (and they often have excuses why they can not). It is wonderful for a husband and wife team to distribute Prabhupada's books together. It's a great idea.
"Now you have a very nice wife, Kancanbala, so my request to both of you is that you work combinedly to push on this Sankirtana Movement of Caitanya Mahaprabhu. This will bring perfection to your lives, as more and more you become attached to the Lotus Feet of Krishna. Persons under the grip of Maya are simply mad after sense enjoyment, but our goal is to lose all desire for sense gratification and become simply mad after Krishna." SP letter to Madhusudana das, Tittenhurst, September 19, 1969
Yes, it's good to work together on book distribution. And many have done so. However, though any husband surely can go out combinedly with his wife, that is not what misogynists are truthfully saying. Misogynists [and not all men] do not trust her unless they are there to keep an eye on her.
Prabhupada never said like that. Both married and unmarried brahmacarini's went out daily, married ones with or without their husband - on Sankirtana - when Prabhupada was on the planet. Usually in pairs, but not usually with men. I know cuz I remember.
Here is an excerpt of something Ramesvara wrote:
"When Srila Prabhupada began empowering his spiritual daughters to go on Sankirtan as preachers and book distributors, they quickly manifested the qualities of bold empowered preachers, equal to (and in some cases greater) than their Sankirtan Godbrothers.
Of course, due to the kanistha mentality and the fanatical animosity of so many foolish male-bodied devotees, in and outside of India, these empowered preachers in female bodies had to work twice as hard, both on Sankirtan and back in the ashram, just to be treated with respect.
With these female Sankirtan soldiers making up half the western zone Sankirtan book distributing army, we defeated the entire sannyas/brahmacari Radha Damodara 11-bus TSKP in the most famous holiday marathon in our Movement’s history (December 1975)
I am sometimes bothered by the stench of the anti-female fanatical fear being spewed by some leaders
Srila Prabhupada appointed Her Grace Yamuna Devi to lead the assembled devotees in every temple in the world in greeting the Deities every morning. Just to be clear for the benefit of the bodily-concept offensive female-hating smarta neophytes, His Divine Grace selected a Vaisnavi, not a male -bodied Vaisnava, to lead everyone in the world in greeting and mediating on the Deities Who have appeared in every temple in the Hare Krsna Movement.
Srila Prabhupada personally told me that Srimati Yamuna Devi was so advanced that she didn’t need to serve under the GBC. He told me she serves directly, transcendentally, under His Divine Grace himself-with no interference from the GBC, the India Bureau and amy other managing group or authority."
Prabhupada: "I am especially pleased to learn that you are introducing my books as textbooks in the colleges. We especially have to try to attract the educated young men and women in your country so that in future there will be many strong leaders to keep our Kriuzshna Consciousness Movement strong." Srila Prabhupada Letter, Govinda dasa, New York, 4/7/73
Here is another letter, and look at all he expected of this woman!
"Please accept my blessings. In reply to your letter dated nil and have noted the contents. I beg to advise you to come to India and live in Mayapur comfortably in association of devotees. If you go, then I shall arrange to give you a very nice room completely for your use and you can peacefully engage in your painting work and read Srimad-Bhagavatam as well as join in with the devotees for regular kirtana, arati, and prasadam. What you have to do in this connection is as follows: 1) immediately you go to New York and take an entry visa from the consulate general of India. 2) ask your father to send the 200 dollars monthly to the Bank of America -Bombay branch, account number 16026, (International Society for Krishna Consciousness Mayapur-Vrndavana Fund.) This money will be kept for your expenditure. I think 500 rupees monthly will be sufficient for your food and lodging (60-70 dollars). And the balance you can spend as you like. I think this arrangement will be very nice for you according to my idea. Now you decide what to do. I hope this meets you in good health." SP Letter to Govinda devi dasi / female disciple -- Honolulu 1 February, 1975
He had no fear of giving a woman money, responsibility, freedom, business, or independence - as he knows she is not woman - she is aham brahmasmi and Vaisnavi. Plus, it is all based in Krishna Consciousness. Those who fear women being independent or having money or for whatever other reasons they fear her, may not be living a life fully surrounded by Krishna Conscious. Material desires are often what causes such fears. And many misogynists have a big fear of strong women, even tho she is a devotee.
In this age of Kali, if a woman does not have her name legally on the house, car, credit card, and anything else - God forbid but if her husband dies - she may have a lot of trouble keeping the roof over her head, buying groceries, keeping the electric turned on, and so forth. Additionally, if she does not know how to balance the bills, how to live in the real world - more serious trouble. Keeping her ignorant of these things, is keeping her UNprotected.
I will agree that we live in the material world and therefore must be careful, but it's not that hard. Srila Bhaktivinode Thakura said to make our homes into Vaikuntha's. Prabhupada repeated this instruction from him. If truthfully doing it, there won't be all this fear and hatred going on.
Can't find the quote at the moment and am sure the narcists out there will love that, but I once read if a woman has a lot of money she is no longer a sudra and can be independent. I read Prabhupada say that in the DOS database. Of course, she must be a devotee and a good one. So must any man.
Additionally, here are some letters from Prabhupada about women doing business:
"My dear daughter Sally,
If you come here there will be no inconvenience for you because there is one lady friend at west 108th street and she will be very glad to accommodate you for a day or two. I think you should come and see the prospect of the business. I am sure you will get very good profit if you start this business and I shall teach you how to prepare nice vegetable dishes. I wish that you may consider this proposal a little seriously and decide to come here for a day or two." SP letter to Sally, New York, New York, November 13, 1965
"Since there is no longer such a rush for printing, you may once again send sketches for my approval. Thank you for organizing the art department." SP Letter to Jadurani -- Nellore 5 January, 1976
"If you produce milk, you should not drink milk very much. Rather, you should save it and convert it into ghee and then sell it to the householders and centers and thus maintain your asrama. The excess quantity of ghee may be exchanged by trade. Kirtana is our first duty. The Deity worship should be simple and the eating should be as meager as possible." Srila Prabhupada letter to Palika November 13, 1975.
"So you are an intelligent girl, I need not talk much, and be happy in Krishna Consciousness business. I am very glad to learn that Muralidhara, Devahuti and Bharadraja are working together. You simply supervise them. I know Bharadraja is a very fast working painter and if he sticks to his work, certainly he will do wonderfully." -Srila Prabhupada Letter to female disciple. Los Angeles, 14 January 1970
"Try to publish Persian books as many as possible. That will be a big success. Iranians have very much respect especially for the Americans and your dealings with them will be very much appreciated. Also, if the collections are very good there you can send some money to Gargamuni Swami in Mayapur for the project." Letter to Nandarani devi dasi -- New York 8 July, 1976, Tehran
"Please accept my blessings. I am in due receipt of your letters with photographs enclosed of Sri Sri Radha-Vanabehari, dated May 10, 1976. I am very glad to see how nicely you are caring for the Deities. I am scheduled to be in Los Angeles from June 1 to June 11. I am even contemplating coming to see you there on your farm if you are unable to come to see me. Please continue to develop things there for women devotees as previously instructed." Prabhupada Letter to women: Yamuna dd, and Dinatarini dd -- Honolulu 15 May, 1976
Moving on:
Sure, he said we can make improvements. That is where they will exploit, as they will likely claim that is what they are doing. We know better. Besides, even improvements have to be backed up by Prabhupada. There is no such modern-day (letters) proof that we should live that way. He was happy if everyone could just maintain.
Next:
"It is actually better to be a sudra than to be a brahmana and not develop the service attitude because that attitude alone satisfies the Lord. Every living being — even if he be a brahmana by qualification — must take to the transcendental service of the Lord. Both Bhagavad-gita and the Srimad-Bhagavatam support that this service attitude is the perfection of the living entity." Srimad Bhagavatm 3.6.33 P
"So we have to become designationless, no designation, sarvopadhi... "I am not Hindu. I am not Mussalman. I am not Christian. I am not brahmana." This is designation. Even sannyasi... Caitanya Mahaprabhu, therefore, naham vipro na ca nara-patir yatir va, He described Himself, "No, I am not ksatriya. I am not brahmana. I am not sannyasi. I am not grhastha. I am not vaisya." simply negation. He simply said, gopi-bhartuh pada-kamalayor dasa-dasanudasah: "I am the servant of servant of servant of the gopi-bhartuh, the maintainer of the gopis, Krsna." SP lec, Bombay, Dec 25, 74
A devotee who is also a Jyotish Astrologer, made an interesting FB post. He said years back, he did charts of many, many gurukuli girls, and none of them had submissiveness in their chart. He felt so strongly about his discovery that he took it to the GBC. But they did nothing. What could they do really? People are born the way they are born, and the only thing that can change a person is transcendental Krishna Consciousness. My purpose for including his discovery is, Prabhupada always spoke highly of the children born into this Movement - that they are a higher birth than we are, standing in line waiting to to be born into the Hare Krishna Movement. Therefore, maybe what some young men need are strong young women. Afterall, if Krishna is in charge of this Movement, would He not send who is best for it, and for it's devotees? So what's the big deal complaining about women not being submissive. It may be just what the doctor ordered. :) Some men do not need a doormat for a wife - they will exploit her. Some men need a strong, independent thinker in Krishna Consciousness.
"So take care of these children. If you can make one child Krishna Conscious, it is a great service. Krishna will be pleased." SP lecture, NV, June 22, 1969
"These children are given to us by Krishna....." To read quote and it's source, click on pic to enlarge and read what Srila Prabhupada has to say:
IMHO misogynists (and not other men) are bordering on Sahajiya. They want to imitate scripture from long ago while ignoring or minimizing so many of Prabhupada's instructions for the current times. And isn't it interesting they expect women to behave like those in ancient scripture from different yuga's, while they do not apply that to themselves and desire many women for sex, or at least approve of the idea for their friends.
Prabhupāda: These sahajiyās will come out of so many devotees. What can be done? From my Guru Mahārāja's disciples, so many sahajiyās came. These are called sahajiyās. Very easily they capture thing. So my Guru Mahārāja used to say, "When my disciples will be sahajiyā, it will be more dangerous." He used to say like that. Take things very easily. You know that Puruṣottama, supposed to be my Godbrother?
Pṛthu-putra: No.
Prabhupāda: You don't know?
Pṛthu-putra: In Māyāpura?
Prabhupāda: In Vṛndāvana.
Pṛthu-putra: In Vṛndāvana. Ah, yes. Puruṣottama, yes.
Prabhupāda: He has poisoned this Nitāi.
Pṛthu-putra: Oh. Is it because we have the desire to come in contact with such persons that we contact them, like Nitāi contacting that Puruṣottama?
Prabhupāda: You may not desire, but if you are not strong, you'll be misled by these rascals. But if we follow this instruction, Narottama dāsa Ṭhākura, āra nā koriho mane āśā, oh, then you become strong. Then you remain strong. Our bhakti line is anyābhilāṣitā-śūnyam [Brs. 1.1.11]. We should be completely zero of our material desires. Anyābhilāṣitā-śūnyam [Cc. Madhya 19.167]. Śūnyam means zero." - Srila Prabhupada's Room Conversation January 28, 1977, Bhuvaneśvara
By the way, there's a reason you won't find certain things in our beautiful, ancient scripture:
"This is a new thing in the history of the sankirtana movement. In India all the acaryas and their dependents later on only acted from the man's side. Their wives were at home because that was the system from old times. But in Bhagavad-gita we find that women are also equally competent like the men in the matter of Krishna Consciousness movement. Please therefore carry on these missionary activities, and prove it by practical example that there is no bar for anyone in the matter of preaching Krishna Consciousness." Srila Prabhupada Letter to female disciple, 1969-12-20
There is a lot in our illustrious ancient scripture we should follow. But for example, giving away a daughter in charity plus to an old man - is not one of them. I recently had one young man quote that to me. He has daughters! sigh This is how selfish the oppressors are. Not seeing reality but holding tight to such dysfunctional ideas for kali yuga, makes me believe THEY are the ones who are less intelligent.
The following is one of the verses they love to quote. Just keep reading beyond it for more.
"According to Vedic culture, even if a young woman is given an old husband, she must respectfully serve him. This is chastity. It is not that because she dislikes her husband she may give him up and accept another. This is against Vedic culture. According to Vedic culture, a woman must accept the husband given to her by her parents and remain chaste and faithful to him." SB 9.3.20, Translation and Purport
First, as I've repeatedly said but narcissist refuse to comprehend, we are not living in that time period and therefore Prabhupada gave us a different lifestyle, nor are we as advanced as those in scripture. ("We" means all disciples, thus men are included).
Next, people who use/misuse this verse, are omitting the fact that she does not have to get married to this old man. She can always say that she does not want to marry so-and-so. While it was encouraged to surrender to the parents 'back than,' and those parents were at least advanced souls - yet the adult child still had a choice. Look to the Four Kumara's for an example. Their father, Lord Brahma, insisted they marry but all four refused and wanted to stay young, innocent children. Lord Brahma became very angry, yet the Four Kumara stuck to their guns. So, this example is there too.
Misogynists are so intensely looking to be served and enjoy their senses thru woman, which is why they have these verses memorized, while minimizing or ignoring instructions for our present time.
Now, what is often spoken of as giving a daughter away in charity, is more often or in modern terminology, along the lines of asking a girl to marry who the parents picked, or they may tell her, but again, the final choice is hers. Nor did they pick some guy 'they' liked. Sure it's nice for the parents to also like him, but far more was involved - including Jyotish Compatibility charts. And in some of the pastimes I've read, the girl and boy had a natural attraction which the girls father picked up on. They were not a mere commodity as some of these kali yuga fathers who promote such verses, view daughters. The misogynistic father may even love her, well to the degree they know how to love. But they have an unhealthy type love for their self more, and toxic love of their need for power and control. There is nothing Krishna Conscious about that.
Another example from scripture: Bhishma wanted Amba, the lovely daughter of the King of Kashi, to marry his brother. But Amba declined. And that was allowed. Some may use this story as a jumping-off point to other aspects of it, but do not let anyone complicate or ignore the point being made here. Which is, even when a marriage is all ready in the works [Bhima kidnapped her, then physically fought off suitors], if the women disagrees, she had a right to say no, and that choice of hers had to be honored. Even centuries upon centuries past.
Had the misogynists bothered to research, they would have found this:
"Marriage and friendship are proper between two people who are equal in terms of their wealth, birth, influence, physical appearance, and capacity for good progeny, but never between a superior and an inferior.” Srimad-Bhagavatam 10.60.15
There are more verses like that last one too. In other words, they can be found by those who desire to find them.
An important instruction - for our yuga/time period:
* Regarding intelligence, or those who are less :) the bottom line regarding why women have been considered less intelligent - that mostly has to do with emotions. Women are said to be emotional. But if she is not by nature that way, or if she learns how to control it, she is no longer less intelligent, as her emotions are not controlling her decision-making. If a man has too much anger or abuses, that is also getting too emotional, thus making such a man less intelligent.
Years ago on a devotee forum, I read one woman ask the question to the world of devotees: "What is the big deal about intelligence level?" At first many gave her all the explanations most readers here all ready heard. And so did she. Therefore, she elaborated, and replied: "No, I get that. What I mean is, why is there so much more importance put on that - shouldn't the importance be placed on how much devotional service and chanting we can do?" Bingo! She hit the nail on the head. And everyone who had been posting other replies, agreed with her, and now wrote different replies. [That consciousness of Krishna is more important than intelligence level].
Simultaneously, we do not see Prabhupada spending a lot of time referring to his female disciples as less intelligent, but the opposite. Therefore, imho men who "take shelter" of this 'women are less intelligent' aspect, are revealing they do not have a deep or genuine understanding of what that means, but are also revealing they may have issues of their own. For example, some misogynists [and not other men] misuse it when they were loosing a debate with a lady, or misuse it to control and manipulate women.
Additionally:
"One should not be very proud of his intelligence but should give all respect to others. In this way, one can chant Hare Krsna offenselessly." - Sri Siksastaka 3
"When one becomes lusty, then one becomes lost of all intelligence. The whole world is going on on the basis of these lusty desires. This is material world. And because I am lusty, you are lusty, every one of us, so as soon as my desires are not fulfilled, your desires are not fulfilled, then I become your enemy, you become my enemy." - Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam 6.1.64-65 (ME: Yes, this is the material world, but it is also the world of polygamists, narcissists, and misogynists. We are trying to help them snap out of it.)
"Intelligence means... One who knows what he is, what is this world, what is God, what are the interrelations—he is intelligent. The animal does not know what he is. He thinks that he is the body. Similarly, anyone who does not know what he is, he is not intelligent." -PQPA, ch 7: Acting in Knowledge of Krsna
"Any process of religiosity based on sense gratification, gross or subtle, must be considered a pretentious religion because it is unable to give perpetual protection to it's folllowers. The real form of religion is spontaneous loving service to Godhead." Sri Caitanya-caritāmṛta (1968 edition) Ādi-līlā, Chapter 1, Text 91
It appears that many do not know how to be married. As such, they turn to scripture to try to figure it out. As any reader can see from the various types of quotes on this page alone, it is not so cut and dry. However, the Krishna Consciousness Movement is not about how to be married, it is about how to get out of this material world and go back to Home - back to Godhead.
Next, narcistic so-called protectors will always assume the woman is in the wrong. They will twist things, say she just wanted to chit-chat (because they view her as a fickle creature who can't be philosophizing), or that she can't see the obvious (different opinion from his) because she's a woman and therefore can't help it (Translation; she's stupid, always will be). On and on goes the word-juggling trickery of the misogynists.
What such men don't know is that they actually look uneducated in general, come across as stubborn rather than smart, and are unaware of the preaching /philosophizing abilities of women.
They can scream that they are protectors 'til the cows come home - but they would not say the above, or the many other mistreatments mentioned on this blog - if they were true protectors. They only protect men, and blame women for everything, no matter what it takes.
I can often tell when I run into one because they tend to think/speak in ways that start to go off topic from the conversation. (Ex: "You're saying that cuz as a woman you can't see the parallels showing you are wrong." Truth is, many women don't want to do battle or explain themselves to such men.) These are not very spiritually advanced men, even though they claim they are. It makes me very sad that Prabhupada's teachings have been twisted in such egotistical ways.
Okay, so, how to tell what to follow and what to sit back and respect of a different time period/yuga? I'd say use common sense, but narcists do not have common sense. Of course, I believe most readers are not narcists because they can't stand such quotes as above, so are unlikely to remain here. Anyhow, IMHO the solution regarding what to follow and what not to, is: read Prabhupada's letters. They are written for our time period. And if something goes against your grain, just don't do it. That is, if you feel it's more than you can handle, do not fret. It's far more important to chant Hare Krishna and be happy.
“Vaisnave jati-buddhih. If anyone considers a Vaisnava, a devotee of the Lord, in the categorical estimation of birth, then that is hellish consideration.” Srila Prabhupada, Srimad Bhagavatam, 6.1.41-42 lecture
"Love is the basic principle of Krsna consciousness, and love is the basic principle of all our activities. So love is there, dormant, but that love is not being properly utilized. So Krsna consciousness is the movement to revive that original love and the original person with whom that loving transaction can be executed." -Srila Prabhupada, Interview, September 24, 1968, Seattle
"So actually, married couples should be paramahamsas. Paramahamsa means the topmost stage of sannyasi. Paramahamsa. A sannyasi has got four stages: kuticaka, bahudaka, parivrajakacarya and paramahamsa. .... It doesn't matter whether a grhastha, vanaprastha, sannyasi. It doesn't matter. So when he preaches all over the world, that is called parivrajakacarya. And when he's experienced, he executes the work by his assistants. That is called paramahamsa. So grhasthas are supposed to be paramahamsa." ~ Sri Vyasa-puja lecture, London, Augt 22, 73
There can be forgiveness for some, but bullies must change their behavior and take to a higher or more honest belief system. Many simply do not know how to be married. However, the Krishna Consciousness Movement is not about how to be married, it is about how to get out of this material world and go back to Home - back to Godhead.
"...when one is elevated to the platform of Krishna Consciousness, whether one is man, woman, shudra, or whatever, everyone is equal." - Srila Prabhupada, Srimad Bhagavatam, 9.14.36
"The Lord is ever increasingly merciful upon the fallen souls of this material world. The whole cosmic manifestation is a chance for all to improve themselves in devotional service to the Lord, and everyone is meant for that purpose." Bhagavad Gita 3.9.25
UPDATE: I noticed I lost 3 subscribers since this post. Not to misunderstand as I do not care how many subscribers I have, but isn't it interesting the same numbers of subscribers stayed for years upon years - until this post. Sorry but I can not water down the teachings to please anyone. And if we are going to save Prabhupada's Movement or open our own temples and avoid problems, we will not succeed by stickling our heads in the sand, or by making wrong things/abuse - as if ok. It is not as if I always write on such topics. There are many posts on direct, blissful Krishna C. For example, How to create your own altar. Some on gardening or health. Then I make a strong post about woman and either some don't want to hear it, or others want a superior position without meeting qualifications. I just can't support such concepts. Ok, enough said. Hare Krishna.
This post has come a long way. Seems there will always be more to this never-ending topic in kali yuga. My humble suggestion is to bookmark and read in the mood of an e-book, since it's long and may get longer. Knowledge is worth it to help protect ourselves, loved ones, and increase our consciousness of Krishna. Pease check back and/or read at your leisure.
RELATED POSTS:
VAD_Why I'm AGAINST it! - VAD is an acronym for VarnAshrama Dharma. The name sounds quite nice, and once upon a time it was done nicely. However, read here what Prabhupada says about it for our times of kali yuga.
Women and Gurukuli's - A pretty intense post. Though like the one today, I felt obliged to write due to bad preaching about women and even about the kids, now grown. Some misogynists and narcissist were blaming the children for what happened to them in childhood. Thus, this post.
A Little Fun - The reason I feel this post is related is because everyone has the right to smile. Plus it is a funny video about arranged marriages, you know, that thing the bullies like to claim they can force their daughters or other female devotees to do. Just see how silly force is even to Hindus. By the way, I myself am not against arranged marries "if" they are done right, but they seldom are. First, there has to be a natural, and mutual attraction. In other words, no one is forced to marry a man they are not drawn to. Next, Jyotish astrological compatibility charts must be done. Since they are not perfect, please get 3. With that said, have fun watching the parody. :)
Tired of Abuse? - This post covers a lot on the topic. It is a more recent one that touches on a certain legal case, though when I started to compose it, I was all ready going to write about how we need to recognize, confront, and correct abuse in this Movement. That is the main topic of the post.
Yamuna Gems - Narada Muni came to our kirtan - IMHO this link should be included cuz it shows how blissfully potent the times were when we did things Prabhupada's way for these days. Practical, and women were included.
Understanding Your Destination SB 1.17.22 - Based on this verse, some will ignore abuse from a spouse, teacher, or the misuse of power and position by a fallen guru or authority. Read here for a clearer understanding, then decide for yourself.
Quotes To Inspire - This belongs here because many women are depressed due to the above-mentioned so-called preaching of bullies. Read quotes about Krishna to get inspired!
Gardening and VAD - I wrote this before some of the others listed above. It can give an idea where I was coming from. Prabhupada quotes are included therefore readers may find it of interest.
Difference Between Hinduism And Krishna Consciousness - Are some devotees practicing Vaishnavism or Hinduism??? Read here to see the difference.
Smile Awhile :) Belong here cuz, IMHO, everyone needs to chuckle. It is not maya or silly feminine stuff to do so. Prabhupada did it.
Be Careful - IMHO this is a very important one for women to read. Or truthful protectors of the females in your family.
For Kids - Krishna Conscious FUN! :) We don't raise our daughters to worship humans, nor our sons. Real Krishna Consciousness is not repressive but joyous. Here is some Krishna fun for kids - or grand-kids! :-)
This and That - All I can say is, read it and you will see it's importance and relevance to our current, daily, spiritual life.
Ecstatic Bliss- Not a very long post compared to many - but blissful. A devotee memory about Srila Prabhupada.
Understanding the Contradictions - The title says it all. Also, not a very long post, and to the point.
Lift Your Spirits Now! Get Your Sadhana Back - Now! This post was originally written for anyone and everyone feeling down and out, certainly it can be for ladies feeling hopeless or depressed or just wondering how to get back even a little of their Krishna Conscious practices.
Handwritten Notice by Srila Prabhupada - Are those men who claim superiority and guruship really following everything Prabhupada instructed them to follow? Above was mention of the 4 regulative principles. Here, there is more.
Absorption Is A Key - Absorption in God, not man. :) Of course, no one is saying to be irresponsible, just be a good disciple and use only little time in householder things, and major time in serving and meditating/chanting of the Supreme Lord. With that said, please read the nectar.
ISKCON Child Abuse - About Gurukuli's. Was it their fault? Their karma? Some arrogant narcissist's say yes. See what is written here, coupled with shastra/scripture.
Why Start A Temple? - We are not just making a list of complaints on this blog, no. We are also offering solutions. Some within each post, and some, here. That is, if you live in a safe environment without a misogynist, then it would apply.
The Old Days, Now A Days - Many talk how they wish they were there back than, but you can start doing things the way Prabhupada wanted them [and not the way bullies say he wanted them], yourself. Relish the old days, these days, by doing it.
Are You Having To Deal With A Crisis? May be helpful to anyone trying to pull themselves out of the muck. Links with resources such as: Suicide Prevention, ChildHelp, YouthLine, Drug Addition Hotline, Domestic Violence number, Crisis Text Line, Grief Guide.
Not In The VedaBase - Good post about not having to be a pure devotee in order to go out into the world and preach, women included.
Love Of God - Experience It Now! - Don't let the bullies take you away from Krishna. Nectar page!
Gallery of Holy Names Blissfulness - Get happy! :) Transcendentally of course. Check out the nectar here.
Listen to Vishaka dd read her book, "What's A Woman To Do?" You may or may not agree, but she makes some good points and was one of the early devotees!
Women in ISKCON in Prabhupada's Times - Composed by a lovely devotee from France, Jyotirmayi dd. It is written in English. Some men make claims "Oh, Prabhupada was only doing that temporarily or wasn't serious about women doing yada yada." Read this link for clarification!
Five Signs of a Spiritual Narcissist - This is a nondevotee site which also makes it nonbiased, and helps people get clear on what to look for to recognize someone who is spiritual but is also a narcissist.
