Some are very favorable to it, pointing out how Prabhupada said we should forgive minor offenses. Yes, he did.
Others feel that medium and particularly severe abuses are grave, and such offenders should not be allowed to slide. They too pointed out Prabhupada quotes which support their understanding. Furthermore, that abusers have the tendency to be repeat offenders when left unchecked.
This blog post is not about the speaker, or the various devotees, just my two cents and experience with the issue.
Those in the first category were stating that forgiveness is more for yourself, a type of letting go in order to move on, so you can heal. I agree with that for minor offenses.
Those in the 2nd category were pointing out it's just a way to brush under the rug, the medium and chiefly large abuses someone committed. I agree with that too.
The first group became more specific and pointed toward forgiveness as good for your health. Remove the anger, hate, blame, resentment, worry - and watch your health blossom. Again, I agree.
Since some were including a philosophy of "my karma - my fault," the second group debated that point strongly. I also take issue with that version of the karma belief - only because it's often a misunderstanding of laws of karma, it's far too speculative, can be misused by bad guys to blame the victim, plus a new adaption of a former misunderstanding.
One godsister expressed that forgiveness does not always result in healing for those who experienced intense abuse, quoting a therapist. Summed up, she elucidated:
Psychologist Alice Miller explains that asking a victim to forgive prior to the offender undergoing justice has been done and their victims nevertheless continued to experience suffering from the effects. It actually compounds trauma. What they really need to hear is unmoving condemnation of whatever bad thing happened. THAT is when real healing can begin.
This is what helps those outright abused to heal, since they no longer feel alone, but rather the world, in our case Movement, is with them. That we know and acknowledge they did not deserve it. This lifts a big burden off their shoulder, and from their inner dialogue.
Found myself in the midst of going back and forth, trying to figure out which side made the most sensible points, in order to pick sides.
While glad to have looked at both, and stand by what I wrote above - however, there I was reading many comments - my head getting a bit dizzy lol - when it hit me:
Why is there so much talk about forgiveness lately? Is it about people trying to get off the hook without making internal changes? Or is it about others who feel hurt? Our focal point use to be Krishna-Katha [talk of God.] I believe in forgiveness. But as devotees who took vows, why are many still living in a way to easily be able to make offenses in the first place? We should be living the blissful lifestyle of the disciple, which includes kindness toward one another - and others. Then there would be less offenses or abuse; less need to ask forgiveness - not more. Hence, I wondered, why so many offenses without solutions, when we have such transcendental teachings and took vows?
Although I know the answers, am trying to aim this dialogue toward something higher.
Quotes from Prabhupada instruct us to behave like ladies and gentlemen [gentle men!], and that the devotional lifestyle is one of sense control - not the mind and senses gone wild. Other quotes of his tell us to be kind, respectful, and more.
When the opposite goes on, leading to a need to repeatedly put a band-aid over it, it may reveal a lack of genuinely following Prabhupada when no one is looking. Or they 'think' no one is looking.
I actually had this happen years ago. Getting online for the first time ever, I was looking forward to finding many lovely devotees for association.
What I found were some making snide, sarcastic comments to another devotee - something most would never do when living in the temple, or on temple property, or even nearby renting from a nondevotee.
Others were using some of the lowest-class swear words.
Good grief, they must have forgotten God and Guru are up there watching them. Plus, they are maintaining low consciousness. Doing it with intent, because a person is their real self when no one is over their shoulder. Then, the truth comes out.
Fortunately I also found many sane, lovely devotees online. But back in the day, if you took initiation, you towed the line regardless of situation. You understood that you are a representative of Srila Prabhupada.
With that said, looking at the current discussions on forgiveness and offenses - the real issue seems to be less about forgiveness and more about honestly following. I need to get this out there and off my chest:
Offenders and especially abusers - knock it off! To continue to intentionally do such things, is going against Srila Prabhupada and Krishna. And come-on, you know it's a heavy pressure to keep doing or speaking wrong things. You want to be better, so if you need professional help - go get it. If you don't, the consequences may be more serious than you expected.
And for everyone else - it's not that hard to live the lifestyle - human beings make it hard. How? Brushing serious abuse under the carpet, as well as minimizing smaller offenses to the point that it was uncommon to say "I'm sorry," for decades.
One example of the later: I read of someone who owed an acquaintance an apology, respond that they did not believe in apologies as long as they are a devotee - plus live life right. Wow, how startling! Where is the humility? No, this is not our philosophy. Prabhupada speaks about offering apologies. So we see even for the small offenses, asking forgiveness is necessary for spiritual life to progress nicely.
Next, how else do conditioned souls make living the lifestyle hard? By protecting known abusers and not arresting them. Stop trying to preach to them when they're first caught, which we know by now doesn't truthfully work. And cease giving them a ticket to India for 'purification.' As some friends have joked: "I have never been to India, guess I should do something wrong to get a free trip there." ha I suspect that has stopped now, but ya never know.
How else do humans make it hard? Politics. Need I say more?
Stinking thinking is another way. Some [not all] do this in the name of God. Yes, they believe they can lie, cheat, steal, etc - as long as they are doing it for the Lord. This can open the door to word jugglery, making promises to the less powerful devotee they later do not keep, as just one example. When those in positions of power do such things, first they're presenting it as if it is our lifestyle when it is not. Also, they make it difficult for others to want to continue to follow the Bhakti way of life, hard to pick it up again. Do not turn your power over to them. Make sure any instructions are in sync with Prabhupada's books, lectures, etc.
[Funny - but do recognize stinking-thinking when you hear it.]
There can be a long list of how we make living the lifestyle hard. Too much to get into, especially since my original intent of this post was:
We will need less focus on forgiveness when we start truthfully following properly - live the lifestyle even when no one is observing you. Prabhupada outlined a beautiful lifestyle for us. Things go wrong when it is not properly employed. Use it, or loose it.
Additionally, some [not all] want initiation, yet do not want to give up, for example, mistreatment of others. Now they (think they) can do it in the name of God. Maybe hot tempers, maybe ADHD, maybe something else. Or some may really be trying but can't make much progress with those listening.
Bottom line? Most of us are not that advanced, let it go and stick with the nectar of Prabhupada quotes.
When preaching something higher, sublime - people are helped more than when fault-finding. Pick your association wisely.
It's easy to follow the lifestyle. Not suggesting anyone must be perfect, just to keep "sincerely" trying. And it sure does not involve all the above drama, or trauma.
It's why I have links throughout and below this blog to help those interested, practice Krishna Consciousness at home. Than there are no big wigs to get in your way or create confusion that may block you from making spiritual advancement. No wrong association passed off as right. No <fill in the blank>.
When Prabhupada was on the planet, classes were about how to practice Krishna Consciousness, when to practice Krishna Consciousness, where to practice Krishna Consciousness, the joy of Krishna Consciousness, the end of repeated birth, death, and suffering when absorbed in Krishna Consciousness. Now there is so much talk of other topics.
Please don't misunderstand. Certainly we should not be too puffed up to offer an apology over minor offenses. To make a small offense is unfortunately, a part of normal life in kali-yuga. This is the era we live in, and how it is set up. All the more reason to offer a 'genuine' apology when we make a minor offense. Just say it and get it over with. :)
Simultaneously, the more we honestly live the sublime lifestyle, breathe it, bring it into our heart by reading daily, singing daily, listening to divine music daily, dancing daily, etc - then we get purified and automatically there are less offenses committed.
Those of us who are priests and nuns should be setting the example. Sure, much changed after Prabhupada left the planet, and it left many of us weak. Weak, not dead. lol
So we should do what we can - but stop serious abuse by taking immediate action against confirmed abusers, because when they "know" they will not get a mere slap on the hand, but rigid consequences, watch the abuse numbers drop profoundly.
In other countries where laws are strict, they have lower numbers of abusers than we do in the West. Not suggesting to copy their laws, or not copy them. I have not looked deeply into them. What I am saying is - this is evidence that when abusers know the reactions will be serious actions taken against them - it works to make most of them stop. They actually control themselves! [Which is proof they can!] No one wants to go to prison!.
And of course let us remember to include the small offenses, which are still hurtful. IMHO the way to reduce them is by owning our contribution if we contributed - plus actively applying the process Prabhupada gave us. That is the way to bliss, happiness, and especially to Krishna..
I agree with the point that if we need an apology from someone and are not getting it - we should not keep holding our breath, but instead move forward with our spiritual life. IMHO waiting for an unlikely apology is giving away your power.
Simply, I do not believe resolving such a need is "one size fits all" forgiveness-therapy. :) What works for some, will not work for others.
If you doubt this, ask any Gurukuli who attended a festival and saw their former abuser enjoying himself there. Gurukuli's have clearly expressed how that made them feel - decades later. When the offense is large, in most cases justice must be taken before the victim can feel sufficient relief. Even before the abuser can experience genuine remorse! Remorse is a known requirement for a real apology, otherwise it's just lip service.
Moving on, it's really not a good idea to give lectures that are more like therapy. Sure, we may need some of that, but it should be outside the Movement instead of a big glorified thing in the Movement.
When Prabhupada gave class, he always spoke about spiritual life. When he instructed us to give classes, he said to speak our realizations [about God]. It was such an exciting time period. We thought it would never end. It doesn't have to, as long as we keep the excitement going by keeping Prabhupada's technique at the forefront.
What if for some, it does not bring healing? Then the individual should seek out a professional. There is no harm nor shame in that.
I appreciate the various devotees who try to help via therapy. Please do it in your office, your tiny apartment, your large house, heck write a blog post with tips - just do not do it within the Movement..
IMHO, those who did not attend college to make a thorough study of therapy or counseling - and complete it with a certificate on their wall - can cause more damage than the intended help. Get your education first. And do not experiment on devotees..
Thirty years ago I had this happen to myself, as well as some of my friends. There was a popular group of devotees following a certain self-help book. I'm not against self-help books, at all. But this one felt fishy to me, cult-like. I refused to join their club..
Oddly these things work for some, because everyone is an individual. However, when it came to people it did not work for, those who did follow this author wrote ostracized them in social settings. .
Truth is, they really did not know what to do with anyone who thought differently from themselves, or didn't fit in the box. Suggestive to me that they were not really as qualified as they viewed themselves. [Neither was that author.] Matter of fact, it simultaneously reminded me of fundamental religions where you are either going to heaven or hell, no other understanding or philosophy allowed..
If some readers think that is why I write this post, that it was a trigger for me, or yada yada - no. Like I said, it was 30 years ago and a learning experience. I got the message and now hope devotees who mean well by including therapy in their lectures or seminars - will also get the message that it takes many years of specific study to give "group" talks on such an intertwined and complex subject. Many will have different issues, different backgrounds - thus different healing needs. They will not all fit in with the group..
With that said phew ha, I'd like to circle back to the original or main intent of this post, that we go to temple to hear about God. Prabhupada gave us something very special, and for that matter, rare in kali-yuga. Countless other places on this planet offer counseling; there are far fewer that offer Krishna Consciousness - especially connected to ShaktyaveshAvatara.
There will be less offenses, less abuse, less need to ask forgiveness or give it - if we "truthfully" follow Prabhupada's outlined program. It will keep us joyfully busy, and it will keep our thoughts on a higher level.
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